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S4/R3 Interlagos - night

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I have only the latest version of the mod installed, because I joined server for the first and only time an hour before the race and replay works fine here :). I have just watched pitlane violations, so post 3 is updated. We can not penalize you, because season 4 is over, but this will have influence to licence progress.
 
Boris and all,
I havent watched my race back. Like others i had an awful off day.
I think for the code 80 i left braking late. Would i have slowed? Im not sure.i do know these cars decelerate rapidly and ive had no problems.in the previous 2 races.
I apologise if not.
I think my issue was exacerbated by the fact i was a long way behind the car in front. So there was room. But lets say he follows the rules and brakes on 9 and i brake on 4...there is still huge potential for a crash. Hes braking 5 seconds before.me which is maybe 100-200kph less speed than me.And how do u police it? There is no voice countdown on the replay unless u time it manually. If i go to check.whether i would have slowed to limit by the 1, how can i check?how can stewards check?Just raising a potential issue.

Surely by saying, "everybody brake on 1 and no overtaking" there is less chance of collisions and not much more chance of exploiting code 80..because there is a smaller range/time period when which to brake i.e approx.1 second.as opposed to 10.

I think ive been quite honest i didnt have my best race and take full responsibility for my failings.
Ive enjoyed the series and think all guys on track drove in the right spirit.

For me the problems began in race 2 by me cutting the pit lane 4 times. My fault. Is there a criteria stewards use to decide the penalty? e.g.. i got penalised as.much as people who cut the chicane many more than x4.
...
This resulted in the penalty drive thrus which would not serve for me and effectively ended my race. The code 80 issues lots of us had seemed to have were like a final nail in my coffin . I was extremely disappointed as i put a lot of time in to improve my driving and knew i had great race pace. Like you guys i tried to drive fairly all.series rather than be dive bombing etc.
 
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I do not understand why do not work for me replay so I do not report incidents. Please only see code80 from my participation.
 
Matej Lakota said:
I have only the latest version of the mod installed, because I joined server for the first and only time an hour before the race and replay works fine here :). I have just watched pitlane violations, so post 3 is updated. We can not penalize you, because season 4 is over, but this will have influence to licence progress.
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Obviously ive violated pitlane lines. Unlike the last race where i got careless with no excuses and got 60 second pen plus drive thru...this race i went thru pits about 6 times trying to serve drive thru. I lost my concentration playing with pit menus and certainly gained no advantage. Indeed my mistake in the last race and the penalty pit glitch essentially dsq me from this race. Ultimately im responsible but i hope stewards will consider how much i lost out already.

Part of me feels like if i hadnt attended this race, i would have more chance to get my license ie i would have had penalties wiped,not had pit glitch and not crossed lines if pit 5 times. Hope im wrong :-(
Thank u either way.
 
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Andrew Ford said:
I think my issue was exacerbated by the fact i was a long way behind the car in front. So there was room. But lets say he follows the rules and brakes on 9 and i brake on 4...there is still huge potential for a crash. Hes braking 5 seconds before.me which is maybe 100-200kph less speed than me.
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That's why the rules clearly state that there are 10 sec for everyone to get off the racing line and slow down safely. If I encounter a code 80 my eyes are in the mirror instantly and if someone is behind me I move to one side right away before eventually slowing down. If that is done properly there is no potential for a crash.

Andrew Ford said:
Surely by saying, "everybody brake on 1 and no overtaking" there is less chance of collisions and not much more chance of exploiting code 80..because there is a smaller range/time period when which to brake i.e approx.1 second.as opposed to 10.
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well no matter how you do it it will always be unfair in the eyes of someone. If everyone has to slow down at the same time some might brake, others might only engage pit limiter and let it roll out, then one party might complain that they get it in a hairpin and are at 80kph right away while others get it on the straight and have a huge amount of time to let it roll out. That way the run more than 80kph for a significant amount of time. So if you say people should slow down at 1 second some will not brake at all, some will brake very hard and will feel wronged by the guys who gained a lot of time and there is no basic understanding on which penalties can be applied.

The way it is now enables everyone to test out the limit themselves, you are responsible to be slow enough when code 80 is enforced, there is no arguing, one clear set of rules, equal for everyone.

Andrew Ford said:
For me the problems began in race 2 by me cutting the pit lane 4 times. My fault. Is there a criteria stewards use to decide the penalty? e.g.. i got penalised as.much as people who cut the chicane many more than x4.
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infringements are usually rated in their severity. You will probably agree that the danger of cutting the pit lane entry or exit line is much greater than the danger of cutting the track. While the first rule is made to prevent incidents the second rule is there to ensure a fair competition.
In real racing series for example you get a drive through for crossing the pit exit line each time and warnings for cutting that eventually add up to a drive through.

Whether a drive through is served is controled by the game as long as you drive through the pit lane without stopping. Stop and goes are served by selecting the stop and go in the pit menu and pitting

I hope I could answer most of your questions
 
Florian Koetz said:
That's why the rules clearly state that there are 10 sec for everyone to get off the racing line and slow down safely. If I encounter a code 80 my eyes are in the mirror instantly and if someone is behind me I move to one side right away before eventually slowing down. If that is done properly there is no potential for a crash.


well no matter how you do it it will always be unfair in the eyes of someone. If everyone has to slow down at the same time some might brake, others might only engage pit limiter and let it roll out, then one party might complain that they get it in a hairpin and are at 80kph right away while others get it on the straight and have a huge amount of time to let it roll out. That way the run more than 80kph for a significant amount of time. So if you say people should slow down at 1 second some will not brake at all, some will brake very hard and will feel wronged by the guys who gained a lot of time and there is no basic understanding on which penalties can be applied.

The way it is now enables everyone to test out the limit themselves, you are responsible to be slow enough when code 80 is enforced, there is no arguing, one clear set of rules, equal for everyone.


infringements are usually rated in their severity. You will probably agree that the danger of cutting the pit lane entry or exit line is much greater than the danger of cutting the track. While the first rule is made to prevent incidents the second rule is there to ensure a fair competition.
In real racing series for example you get a drive through for crossing the pit exit line each time and warnings for cutting that eventually add up to a drive through.

Whether a drive through is served is controled by the game as long as you drive through the pit lane without stopping. Stop and goes are served by selecting the stop and go in the pit menu and pitting

I hope I could answer most of your questions
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Florian, thanks for taking the time to respond.
Obviously it was my mistake to cut the pitlane in two races which is stupid..as its something i just never do !
On all occasions i dont think i was near other cars to put them in danger and ironically, the last time i pitted within the lines was the time i got hit by someone else! I guess i was wonderimg if stewards take all things into accout when applyimg rules like i say f1..or if in simracing club it is black and white for consistency-regardless of extra circumstances. Either way i raced and accept(ed) the ruling without fuss.

Re: the pit stop issues...i served stop and go fine. The drive thru would not serve-i didnt pit- i drove thru about 6 times! This has happened once before to me in rf2, in the early builds. I will google search.

Its not my position to decide the rules. I recognise people would always complain about something. I think that with practise, the top racers can just about manage code 80. But mortals...well, at interlagos there was carnage. What happens if two cars move off the racing line e.g.left? so now theyre on the same line. Theyre potential braking at different times whilst looking backwards and forwards, managing gaps in front and behind?!!! Thats increased risk. Surely it would be quicker and easier for stewards to monitor changing gaps during code80 than:multiple guys get race wrecked, bad feeling from damage and misjudgements ? Are you telling me this happens in the real WEC?! Surely it is yellow flags and slow to 80 on sight? ( ie the same as stopping on the 1 count).tell me if im wrong?
Ive no doubt someone will argue that vec drivers have no issues. However, it was sunny in bristol today. Its due to be sunny tomorrow. That doesnt mean it wont rain heavily.
Im trying to reduce risk. Only my opinion maybe but...id rather file a successful complaint against another guy gaining ground under code 80 than filing a successful complaint because a guy drove in the back of me, ruined my race- and the guys in front because i smashed into him...and it will happen at some point.next month, next year or the year after. Again, just my opinion.
I hope im wrong.
 
Andrew Ford said:
Obviously it was my mistake to cut the pitlane in two races which is stupid..as its something i just never do !
On all occasions i dont think i was near other cars to put them in danger and ironically, the last time i pitted within the lines was the time i got hit by someone else! I guess i was wonderimg if stewards take all things into accout when applyimg rules like i say f1..or if in simracing club it is black and white for consistency-regardless of extra circumstances. Either way i raced and accept(ed) the ruling without fuss.
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It is common for the pit lane ruling to be applied independant on if there are cars around you. I have to say I don't quite know what you mean. Of course there can be extra circumstances that affect the way rules are applied. For example the pit exit could be blocked.

Andrew Ford said:
Its not my position to decide the rules. I recognise people would always complain about something. I think that with practise, the top racers can just about manage code 80. But mortals...well, at interlagos there was carnage. What happens if two cars move off the racing line e.g.left? so now theyre on the same line. Theyre potential braking at different times whilst looking backwards and forwards, managing gaps in front and behind?!!!
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well yeah, the ruling kinda expects the drivers to have a functioning brain :D
You have 10 sec. That's plenty to move off the racing line, monitor the guy behind and the situation around you, move further if necessary and eventually brake when you know the guy behind is not on the same line with you. Honestly that's really nothing and it's completely intuitive. If everyone follows this the guy in front won't brake before the guy behind is clear and in general you only have to watch the guy behind.
Honestly there is no other scenario that makes a code 80 more fair and more safe for everyone.
Of course there CAN be danger if someone starts to brake very very early but there is always the danger of someone braking early. I've seen someone brake at the 300m board in Le Mans for one of the chicanes on Mulsane straight. That's equally dangerouse but that only happens if the guy in front decided to leave his brain in the bathroom. Just the same as with someone braking fully for code 80

Andrew Ford said:
Thats increased risk. Surely it would be quicker and easier for stewards to monitor changing gaps during code80 than:multiple guys get race wrecked, bad feeling from damage and misjudgements ? Are you telling me this happens in the real WEC?! Surely it is yellow flags and slow to 80 on sight? ( ie the same as stopping on the 1 count).tell me if im wrong?
Ive no doubt someone will argue that vec drivers have no issues. However, it was sunny in bristol today. Its due to be sunny tomorrow. That doesnt mean it wont rain heavily.
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well the stewards do monitor gaps during code 80 of course. Under normal circumstances it is impossible that people wreck under code 80. And if that's too hard to do, honestly, then that driver is not suited for license 4.
Of course there are full-course-yellows in WEC and yes there are yellow flags prior to the FCY but there are only yellows in the corner of the accident. And in fact it seems as if WEC drivers get less reaction time for FCY. So this system is actually quite simple for the driver and it is as simple and as fair as a code 80 can possibly be.
 
Thanks for the awesome race.

I started P13 and made up 6 places in the first 1.3 laps :D

I had an awesome battle with Osadowski and Makovkin.
Masovkin crashed in the 2nd last lap where I could get this position for P5! :D Yeay

Sorry to the 2 guys I had a collision with, both were partially my fault.
 
Andrew Ford said:
What happens if two cars move off the racing line e.g.left? so now theyre on the same line. Theyre potential braking at different times whilst looking backwards and forwards, managing gaps in front and behind?!
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During the C80 you really don't want to be moving suddenly, especially in a multi-class race which this academy is preparing you for. You really don't want to braking suddenly as soon as the steward announces there will be a C80, but you don't want to leave it for the last second either. As long as you can hear the initial warning, there really is no reason there should be any problems at the beginning or during a caution period. As a general rule, you can ease off the throttle at 10 seconds, and then start braking at around 5. Don't worry too much about moving off the racing line, that's a very circumstantial thing where you might be following someone quite close or someone you don't quite trust. If you have one or two car lengths between yourself and someone else a sudden movement off the racing line would simply be dangerous and unnecessary. The rest of it is pretty much as Florian says, just make sure you always test your TeamSpeak properly and you can hear the steward before the race begins.
 
Florian Koetz said:
It is common for the pit lane ruling to be applied independant ....
When is it not common please?

I don't quite know what you mean
Im not sure how else I can explain. I mean if you cross the pit line, will you always get a set penalty e.g if there were cars within one virtual mile or not?..

well yeah, the ruling kinda expects the drivers to have a functioning brain :D
I know you probably mean this as a joke or at least a semi joke, but im guessing there were many reasonable functioning brains amongst the carnage from interlagos and code 80 the other night so feels a little insulting and i dont get easily offended
You have 10 sec. That's plenty to move off the racing line,
But if you read my initial posts, you don't get 10 seconds. As i pointed out, you create a different braking point and a different brake pressure for nearly EVERY SINGLE DRIVER e.g driver A brakes on 10 s, driver C brakes on 5secs...think about it?

Honestly there is no other scenario that makes a code 80 more fair and more safe for everyone.
We clearly differ in opinion lol

Of course there CAN be danger if someone starts to brake very very early
So why keep a rule thar increases the chance of multiple people braking 100s of virtual meters apart?
but there is always the danger of someone braking early. I've seen someone brake at the 300m board
And this is still dangerous right? You wouldnt advise it of multiple drivers?

That's equally dangerouse but that only happens if the guy in front decided to leave his brain in the bathroom.
But in code 80, he could be just preparing for the 80 limit at a different point and rate within the "designated" time... which is my point.

. Under normal circumstances it is impossible that people wreck under code 80.
But interlagos was normal circumstances? Lots of people with functioning brains crashed (excluding myself of course lol)
And if that's too hard to do, honestly, then that driver is not suited for license 4.
Nine times out of ten it might be fine
But again , does it increase risk or decrease risk? I bet a lot of the drivers who crashed would be fine with license 4. I know personally i have a very good cv as an endurance driver and founder of TXL Racing..the guys who won VEC season 7. But you might point out that its all opinions :)

Finally, please point me in the direction of a website a ruling or a video that highlights such a range (10 seconds) for slowing in real life WEC ? Are there no longer full course yellows? Whether there are or not e.g slow zones, in all cases i would assume there is a narrow range of braking point/reaction for all drivers i.e a zone start point a flag a marker...

Thank you for responding.again i accept responsibility for my mistakes. However i have just tried to raise awareness of the potential for carnage.
Im not some new kid on the block spitting is dummy out. If the ruling stays the sane forever more then so be it. If 99 pc of people are happy fine. Ive mentioned it. Im not going to campaign lol

What could happen in this situation is that people get annoyed. Whose this awkward new guy questioning our rules?! Weve never had any problems?!throw the book at him! :)
But this guy is nearly 37 and just respectfully raising an issue that wasnt just evident for himself at interlagos.
Cheers buddy.
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For pit lane entry and exit it doesn't matter whether cars are close to you or not

everyone can make mistakes, I make mistakes as much as anyone else but we talk about the general procedure here and in general this procedure is not particularly dangerouse.
I said before it doesn't matter at which point everyone brakes as long as they get out of each others way. You just lift off, create a gap to the guy in front, move over, brake, as said before.

I have not seen a proposed system that would work better than the code 80 procedure we use now except for the one where everyone brakes at 1. But that leaves exactly the same issues with some people braking hard, some people letting the car roll out and even worse there is no basis for stewards to reason penalties so everything is out of control and the time gain by getting a code 80 in a fast corner of the track would be huge compared to getting it in a slow corner.
That's why your proposal is worse than what we have now which should have become clear over the last few posts. It does not increase the risk of a crash more than any other code 80 procedure I can think of.


FIA has every rulebook public, google it or go to their website and have a look at the sporting regulations of WEC.

This is the last response I'm going to give. I reasoned the rules here as well as I could and there is no point in repeating my opinion again and again.

I really hope it cleared all your questions.
 
Florian Koetz said:
For pit lane entry and exit it doesn't matter whether cars are close to you or not

everyone can make mistakes, I make mistakes as much as anyone else but we talk about the general procedure here and in general this procedure is not particularly dangerouse.
I said before it doesn't matter at which point everyone brakes as long as they get out of each others way. You just lift off, create a gap to the guy in front, move over, brake, as said before.

I have not seen a proposed system that would work better than the code 80 procedure we use now except for the one where everyone brakes at 1. But that leaves exactly the same issues with some people braking hard, some people letting the car roll out and even worse there is no basis for stewards to reason penalties so everything is out of control and the time gain by getting a code 80 in a fast corner of the track would be huge compared to getting it in a slow corner.
That's why your proposal is worse than what we have now which should have become clear over the last few posts. It does not increase the risk of a crash more than any other code 80 procedure I can think of.


FIA has every rulebook public, google it or go to their website and have a look at the sporting regulations of WEC.

This is the last response I'm going to give. I reasoned the rules here as well as I could and there is no point in repeating my opinion again and again.

I really hope it cleared all your questions.
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Like i said i accept peoples opinions are different and i dont expect multiple responses. I just raised an issue. My opinion hasnt changed and ive no doubt the rule will stay the same. I also would be very suprised if this system is ever seen in real racing but will keep an open mind.

Take care :)
 
Andrew Ford said:
Like i said i accept peoples opinions are different and i dont expect multiple responses. I just raised an issue. My opinion hasnt changed and ive no doubt the rule will stay the same. I also would be very suprised if this system is ever seen in real racing but will keep an open mind.

Take care :)
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Well F1 has a virtual safety car which is basically Code 80. But the Code 80 was invented/designed for simracing so no reason it should be used elsewhere :)
 
@andrew & @Tero - Research is important...Code 80 has NOT been used just for sim events. It's a real live thing.

1) The WEC has been using this for a few years
2) Creventic also adopted the same system and
3) F1 also using something similar.
 
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Tracy Nolte said:
@andrew & @Tero - Research is important...Code 80 has NOT been used just for sim events. It's a real live thing.

1) The WEC has been using this for a few years
2) Creventic also adopted the same system and
3) F1 also using something similar.
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Tracy, the point i was making was not that it doesnt exist (reading my posts obviously wasnt important ):rolleyes:

I will keep an open mind. I would ask that someone show me evidrnce pf a rule where drivers can slow at any point within a 10 second countdown rather than upon waved yellow flags or an automatic limiter
 
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