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Would you like to see the numbers of cuts to go up to 5 per driver instead of 3?

Would you like to see the numbers of cuts to go up to 5 per driver instead of 3?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 50.0%
  • No

    Votes: 20 50.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .

Nuno Pinto

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If you get 0 track cuts during 2 or 3 stints you are seriously not even close to the limit of what the car can do.
If you say people try to go 0 on the cuts, good for them, but for someone who always runs close to the limit of what the car can do, believe me, 99.9% of the track cuts are because of small errors, like the car steping out when you don't expect, or missing the braking point by 1 meter and going a bit wide.
If you never get this sort of situations you are not driving the car like you should, I'm sorry but when you are racing you first should try not to crash and in second place go as fast as possible, and if you are not doing the 2nd, then you don't know what real racing is.
People have different objectives, I completely understand that, but if you are not pushing yourself you are not a real simracer or racer, period.
 

Enzo Fazzi

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If you get 0 track cuts during 2 or 3 stints you are seriously not even close to the limit of what the car can do.
If you say people try to go 0 on the cuts, good for them, but for someone who always runs close to the limit of what the car can do, believe me, 99.9% of the track cuts are because of small errors, like the car steping out when you don't expect, or missing the braking point by 1 meter and going a bit wide.
If you never get this sort of situations you are not driving the car like you should, I'm sorry but when you are racing you first should try not to crash and in second place go as fast as possible, and if you are not doing the 2nd, then you don't know what real racing is.
People have different objectives, I completely understand that, but if you are not pushing yourself you are not a real simracer or racer, period.
I've gotten 2 warnings almost every race, there is a difference (especially in Endurance racing) between finding the limit and losing more time due to penalties.
 

Tobias Lange

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If you get 0 track cuts during 2 or 3 stints you are seriously not even close to the limit of what the car can do.
If you say people try to go 0 on the cuts, good for them, but for someone who always runs close to the limit of what the car can do, believe me, 99.9% of the track cuts are because of small errors, like the car steping out when you don't expect, or missing the braking point by 1 meter and going a bit wide.
If you never get this sort of situations you are not driving the car like you should, I'm sorry but when you are racing you first should try not to crash and in second place go as fast as possible, and if you are not doing the 2nd, then you don't know what real racing is.
People have different objectives, I completely understand that, but if you are not pushing yourself you are not a real simracer or racer, period.
There are 2 types of race drivers:
The first one get a penalty for the 3rd cut and the next time he tries to drive more careful to avoid the penalty.
The second one knows that he is perfect, so he asks for changing the game/ rules.
 

Yoeri Gijsen

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This is basically argued against in this quote (which i agree on) - but also understand your point Yoeri.

I understand the reason that sometimes in races you run wide, but yeah i think we´ve managed to do this quite well over the years - with the anticuts. Now when sliding off track getting multiple penalties is usually what goes on - on modded tracks as they tend to make a lot of "surfaces" which makes it difficult for the game to understand.
I think Tobias makes a very fair point. I don't argue with gravel traps or walls for that matter. If they're there, you better deal with them and that's fine. I prefer to have physically sensible limits, so that when I put my car over the edge I can actually feel that I'm on the bad stuff. All these modern day run off areas kind of make you feel running over them is no big deal. They don't bite back like a gravel trap, wall, tire stack or solid anti-cut does. I'm not a big fan of street circuits, but at least you're not going to even consider running your car wide when you miss your mark.
 

Nuno Pinto

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There are 2 types of race drivers:
The first one get a penalty for the 3rd cut and the next time he tries to drive more careful to avoid the penalty.
The second one knows that he is perfect, so he asks for changing the game/ rules.
What you just said makes absolutely no sense, no one is perfect, if anyone was perfect he would do 0 track cuts, lol.
So your theory is ridiculous to say the least.
Doing 3 track cuts, and then for example you are laping a GT or a P2 like last season and the other driver makes a mistake and you are obligated to go off track to avoid a crash, you get a penalty so your theory again makes no sense.
There are things that you simply can't control, up the number to 5 would help those situations and make the racing more fair. I saw for example Marius streaming @ Le Mans this year and I saw him getting penalties just because he made small mistakes that everyone does, but because he couldn't change drivers at the time he kept getting penalties.
To me that is unfair and should be changed.
 

Don Baumbach

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the debate on this topic could go on and on, and i don't mean to encourage it.
no one is perfect, but we all strive to achieve that 'perfect' performance. we know that every 'mistake' will cost us. drivers that make fewer mistakes are usually rewarded with higher finish position. and sometimes performance is impacted by someone else's 'mistake'. that sucks, but that's racing.

the current threshold for cuts is 3 ... that's 3 'mistakes' before there are consequences. its the same for everyone . . . and because its same for everyone, so difficult to see how it could be considered less than fair.
i get nuno's point, though... i've been penalized by it, and its frustrating, especially when 1 or 2 of those cuts were caused when avoiding unpredictable drivers... but the conditions are the same for everyone.
 

Blane Heerey

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I don't think that the cut limit should go up, just that what counts as a cut should maybe change.

For example, Le Mans, T1, running wide into the gravel most likey isn't going to be gaining time, and hence should not be called a cut.
 

Nuno Pinto

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So, let's say that I am driving a P1 and I made 3 mistakes during my stints and I have 3 track cuts, and I am leading the race with 5 minutes to the end.
I have a 20second lead and there is 6 laps to go.
I would need to lose more than 3 seconds a lap so the guy behind could get closer and have a shot at overtaking me, and because of that I can reduce the pace and be safer, but when lapping a GT, the driver makes a mistake and I HAVE to run wide to avoid a crash and I get a stop and go penalty and I lose the race lead and finish P2.
How is that fair or the same for everyone? That doesn't happen in real life so why do we need to be more perfect than payed professional racing drivers?
 

Bernd Schmidt

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If you would allow everything ppl would drive crazy in their behaviour, we can't do it as it is in real life as we don't have the amount of stewards nor the amount of screens to watch at, so we need to use anything else for simracing. As it is in another simulation where you have x amount of incidents until you get DQ'ed in an non league race, which means if you've to avoid anything and get your last incident point you get DQ'ed, you might will say it's not fair because real life doesn't handle it in this way, but it is fair! Why? Because it is the same for everyone who is racing with you. I won't say any of this solutions are perfect, but it's definitly fair and believe me, i'm also not happy about how it's handled as you get those warning or penalties also for some stuff which isn't your fault, but the games can't handle it in another way, maybe it will in years which i don't believe atm, so handle it as it is, as it's definitly fair and when it's an absolute no go for you, i would suggest to not race in any league, races, sims what ever, which are using any kind of system like that. Just my 2 cents on that topic
 

Tobias Lange

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but when lapping a GT, the driver makes a mistake and I HAVE to run wide to avoid a crash ... That doesn't happen in real life so why do we need to be more perfect than payed professional racing drivers?
You forget situations, in which you can't avoid a collision. Is it fairer when you have to do long repair stops, because of mistakes of others? If I review S10 in Division 3, the non-fault-collision are also the same for everyone and fair (In the first races we were crashed by others mistakes, but at end of le mans we were on P2 and the leader lost one minute during a non-fault-repair stop and we won, so sometimes you have luck and sometimes bad luck).
If you are talking about real life: In rf2 the only mechanical issues are to destroy the engine with a double downshift or a wrong setup (both are your own mistake). But in real life the engine is able to failure on hisself, also the gearbox can failure and everything else. I don't think, that you would be happy, when your car fall appart on his own during the last laps of a race.
 

Jimmi Allison

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I kind of had the feeling that this thread would go down a different path and not just the 3 vs 5 discussion.

1. If there are not cut track rules - even manual, people WILL exploit the oppertunity to cut the track more than they should. TRUST me we´ve done this far to long to not know how competitive drivers do. And im not calling anyone a cheater, im just saying that if there is no system to catch them and tell them they are doing it wrong, then you will see something really bad.
2. We did this manually for some years, but we are not doing that again - unless we are talking about a specific corner/pit exit/dangerous place.

So no matter what you think is fair or not fair, we are using it. Just to clear things up, even if you think a poll will change this - it wont ;) Can the system be improved - not a lot really, the issue is with 3rd party tracks (such as Le Mans) where the surfaces cross over each other and making the game think you cut A LOT.

It has its downsides since it has to be done automatically, sure but so does every single game - except we dont DQ driver if they have x amount of incident points ;)
 

Dennis Lind

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Project CARS 2 does it very well without live stewards ... [in regards of cutting penalties]
So they calculate the amount of time you gained and you can then give it back ; if not that time will be deducted as a time penalty.
Additionally if you exceed the limits too many times, you get warnings, drivethroughs and stop & go penalties.
Thanks for that very valuable information.
However this is not pCars 2 or any other arcade, so we don't have the liberty of having ''live penalty'' systems.
Obviously it would be smart to have a slow down system, but I'd still rather have live admins.
I do firmly believe that admins did do a great job last year in case of a mistake or off track, for the future it should be possible to notify them if you have this issue with getting a cut track for a driving mistake :)
 

Kevin Ryan

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It's not easy to give 110% and not get any track cuts but then again most stints I did, I didn't get any. I don't think moving it to 5 would do anything. Drivers would just push a bit more and end up getting 4 and then start complaining when they got the 5th. I think the problem is with the system and not the number.

Ideally, I think the best solution is a live steward to deal with these things. I volunteered for a while at ISEC doing this and I thought it worked very well. @Riccardo Corazzari might remember me shouting at him on TS to stop cutting the chicane at Imola :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
 

Jan Studenski

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However this is not pCars 2 or any other arcade, so we don't have the liberty of having ''live penalty'' systems.
pCars 2 is a simulation, that is a fact!
The cut track system of Project CARS 2 is awesome and pretty realistic, but I guess you never tried it out properly. I also like F1 2017 in terms of cut track system.
For both a rewrite in rFactor 2 would be necessary.

Obviously it would be smart to have a slow down system
A slowdown system is one of the worst things you can do. See Assetto Corsa: Really prone to dangerous situations up to huge carnage.

I'd still rather have live admins
Utopian, they never could keep up with reviewing everything with so many divisions.
 
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Riccardo Corazzari

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It's not easy to give 110% and not get any track cuts but then again most stints I did, I didn't get any. I don't think moving it to 5 would do anything. Drivers would just push a bit more and end up getting 4 and then start complaining when they got the 5th. I think the problem is with the system and not the number.

Ideally, I think the best solution is a live steward to deal with these things. I volunteered for a while at ISEC doing this and I thought it worked very well. @Riccardo Corazzari might remember me shouting at him on TS to stop cutting the chicane at Imola :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
Personally i liked last year system, if i would change something i would make them limits a bit more wide in some cases. For example le mans S10, first version of track limits was looking more fun to drive, while on second version (more strict limits) i felt i was just driving to avoid them warning everytime.

The only real problem from last year was that -as a GT driver- if i was forced out by some lmps then i was getting a cut warning -even losing laptime- and imo that should be the real stuff to improve here. That's an objective problem. Having 3 or 5 cuts, wider or tighter limits, is all subjective imo
 

Jerome Prioleau

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People have different objectives, I completely understand that, but if you are not pushing yourself you are not a real simracer or racer, period.
To be a real simracer and to be fast, the important thing is to learn the limits of your car and also those of the track. It's a package for win ... among others ;)

But, if it is possible to improve the automatic penalty system ? Because at Le Mans for example, after a track exit, it was possible to have a pack of 5 to 10 penalties at once.
It's a little painful to manage in race with stewards.

Lastly, last season, it is true that some track limits were a little harsh or not logical.
I think the good limits are to have at least 2 wheels inside the race line.
 

Gustavo da Silva

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To be a real simracer and to be fast, the important thing is to learn the limits of your car and also those of the track. It's a package for win ... among others ;)

But, if it is possible to improve the automatic penalty system ? Because at Le Mans for example, after a track exit, it was possible to have a pack of 5 to 10 penalties at once.
It's a little painful to manage in race with stewards.

Lastly, last season, it is true that some track limits were a little harsh or not logical.
I think the good limits are to have at least 2 wheels inside the race line.
I had a scenario just like yours.
I posted in the thread earlier. But yes i had an excursion into the gravel at dunlop because of that pesky curb on the inside. I lost time, and I had 5 penalties for cutting the track :lol: :Laugh:
 
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