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Random rant

Tim Greven

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Hi

I'm not sure where I can find information on who is stewarding the incidents in the race.
I would like to have a word with the steward that made the decision about the incident in div 2 at timestamp 1933.

This will be discussed in private message, no worries ;)
Not looking for a fight just some more details.
 

Jimmi Allison

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Stewards are several persons including me - there will be no discussions about reviews. Otherwise we would not get anything else done.
You overtook under yellow flag where others did not slow as much as we would have thought would be wise, they did not gain a position.
 

Tim Greven

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Thank you for keeping this open.
Yes, I did overtake that that LMP 2 as I was already besides him before the yellow appeared on my monitor, I moved as far right to give all the space.
Quite swiftly after we passed the cars that were against the wall on the left another LMP2 blasted past that LMP2 and me whilst yellow which didn't get a penalty.
In the end I lost a position under yellow.

That was the only point of question I had about this incident.
 
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Timotej Andonovski

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Will start off by saying that I went through both the VEC and VLMS rule book and the rules for the most part (in this case for the starting procedure) are exactly the same.

I would like to bring your attention to this part of the Rules:
- 4.2.9 Drivers who spin, or otherwise drop out of place in line, during the formation lap must not attempt to pass other cars in order to regain their place. In this circumstance a driver should safely blend into formation lap traffic or wait for the field to go past before rejoining track, then carefully make their way through the grid to their assigned starting spot.
The way I see it, you are allowed to make up for the lost ground on your formation lap as long as you do it safely and avoid any contact or cause further issues. Please correct me if I am wrong and I am misreading this.

My second point I'd like to point out is that in today's race (VLMS one) the race stewards stated that you are allowed to catch up to the car ahead if for any reason you fall behind. This was confirmed by people in my team.

Finally, to bring up the issue. At the start of the last race in Estoril, I safely started the race, i.e. waited for the guy ahead to safely merge into the single file queue and I join him afterward. I was also worried about any PC stutters so I was very cautious. This created a gap of about 15-20 meters to the guy ahead. The gap was considerable, but it was out of caution. Knowing that I disengaged the speed limited and caught up. It was done in less than a second and I only sped up to about 120 kph, but I still maintained a safe gap. For this, our car has a DT for the next event at Sebring.

My final words to this are as follows. I know that the stewards' decisions are final and I am not begging for the penalty to be revoked. All I want is clarification. Are you or are you not allowed to catch up? In my eyes, as far as I see it, you are allowed to overtake multiple cars, however gaining 20 meters is forbidden and penalty worthy.
 

Daniele Vidimari

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I was surprised today too, i thought VLMS and VEC share the same rules in this regard.

Btw:
4.2.4 Drivers are expected to maintain a smooth pace under pitlimiter ie: 80 kmh around the track. Unless told otherwise by race stewards

That was the official reply few races ago, i think it was VEC Interlagos or Sepang, i don't remember, some teams discussed this.
 

Timotej Andonovski

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Daniele, I read that as well. Yes, that is correct and I stand by it, but that means that rules are contradicting each other and we need a clarification, i.e. be it black and white. Either you can or cannot.
 

Simon Marshall

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It’s a bit galling that we are told to do something this race that we were penalised for last race
 

James Andrew

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I did point out pre-season about a number of unclear rules and even blatant contradictions. I was amazed to see a penalty for this pit-limiter/formation lap thing. Of course people will fall back or make space to be careful. I would expect a brief moment off the limiter to catch up should be acceptable as long as:
a) no incident occurs as a result, and
b) the pit limiter is permanently on for the ten seconds up to and including the start/finish line or race start point. (basically, do your catching before the final approach to the line. No sneaky early release)
 

AJ Snyder

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This is most intriguing. If you view D1 IRR for Orange Zone, you'll see a NFA for disengaging speed limiter to catch up.
 

Jimmi Allison

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This is most intriguing. If you view D1 IRR for Orange Zone, you'll see a NFA for disengaging speed limiter to catch up.
Because I told teams to catch up!
When not being directly involved in a division I think you read too much into some IRR. If I tell drivers to catch up - they will be allowed to do so. Anything a race director deem important overrule any rule there is.
Remember not every single scenario is the same, not every race and not every reaction can ever be the same.
 

Jimmi Allison

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I did point out pre-season about a number of unclear rules and even blatant contradictions. I was amazed to see a penalty for this pit-limiter/formation lap thing. Of course people will fall back or make space to be careful. I would expect a brief moment off the limiter to catch up should be acceptable as long as:
a) no incident occurs as a result, and
b) the pit limiter is permanently on for the ten seconds up to and including the start/finish line or race start point. (basically, do your catching before the final approach to the line. No sneaky early release)
There were sneaky release of the pitlimit we - giving some drivers a jump start on Interlagos - again review the incidents, that will help.
 

Jimmi Allison

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It’s a bit galling that we are told to do something this race that we were penalised for last race
I repeat myself - but if you read the rules “unless told otherwise” you will understand. I did this because I could see an disadvantage to some drivers.
 

Jimmi Allison

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Daniele, I read that as well. Yes, that is correct and I stand by it, but that means that rules are contradicting each other and we need a clarification, i.e. be it black and white. Either you can or cannot.
No they don’t - as I’ve said we need to be able to control things that is going on.
You Are not allowed unless this is the race director that mention it. Period. Pretty black and white to me
 

Jimmi Allison

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Will start off by saying that I went through both the VEC and VLMS rule book and the rules for the most part (in this case for the starting procedure) are exactly the same.

I would like to bring your attention to this part of the Rules:
- 4.2.9 Drivers who spin, or otherwise drop out of place in line, during the formation lap must not attempt to pass other cars in order to regain their place. In this circumstance a driver should safely blend into formation lap traffic or wait for the field to go past before rejoining track, then carefully make their way through the grid to their assigned starting spot.
The way I see it, you are allowed to make up for the lost ground on your formation lap as long as you do it safely and avoid any contact or cause further issues. Please correct me if I am wrong and I am misreading this.

My second point I'd like to point out is that in today's race (VLMS one) the race stewards stated that you are allowed to catch up to the car ahead if for any reason you fall behind. This was confirmed by people in my team.

Finally, to bring up the issue. At the start of the last race in Estoril, I safely started the race, i.e. waited for the guy ahead to safely merge into the single file queue and I join him afterward. I was also worried about any PC stutters so I was very cautious. This created a gap of about 15-20 meters to the guy ahead. The gap was considerable, but it was out of caution. Knowing that I disengaged the speed limited and caught up. It was done in less than a second and I only sped up to about 120 kph, but I still maintained a safe gap. For this, our car has a DT for the next event at Sebring.

My final words to this are as follows. I know that the stewards' decisions are final and I am not begging for the penalty to be revoked. All I want is clarification. Are you or are you not allowed to catch up? In my eyes, as far as I see it, you are allowed to overtake multiple cars, however gaining 20 meters is forbidden and penalty worthy.
As mentioned in previous replies. If you spin you are out of order and this can potentially give bigger issues than going through the field. A P2 in a great mix will give issues. So right there you are allowed to safely go through the field. Vs than going on/off limiter within the same class.
 

Yoeri Gijsen

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As mentioned in previous replies. If you spin you are out of order and this can potentially give bigger issues than going through the field. A P2 in a great mix will give issues. So right there you are allowed to safely go through the field. Vs than going on/off limiter within the same class.
If this is the case, then it may be a good idea, for future rule book revision, to clarify that in the actual rules. I'm not sure every team will read through every forum post to pick up on these sidenotes. In any case a sidenote like this one here is not self-explanoritory, which could cause unnecessary confusion.

So if I get this right:

You can pass to regain your position
  • If you drop back to a different class as you rejoin the track during the formation lap
  • If your race director tells you
You cannot pass to regain position
  • If you remain in the same class when your rejoin the track during the formation lap
 

Timotej Andonovski

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As mentioned in previous replies. If you spin you are out of order and this can potentially give bigger issues than going through the field. A P2 in a great mix will give issues. So right there you are allowed to safely go through the field. Vs than going on/off limiter within the same class.
So why not clarify this? People above said that this is not a new issue. I am new here, only 2 race experience and wanted some clarification. I got it, I will take the penalty, move on. But please update the rules accordingly in the near future, so confusions like this won't happen. On top of that make them consistent, thanks.
 

Jimmi Allison

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If this is the case, then it may be a good idea, for future rule book revision, to clarify that in the actual rules. I'm not sure every team will read through every forum post to pick up on these sidenotes. In any case a sidenote like this one here is not self-explanoritory, which could cause unnecessary confusion.

So if I get this right:

You can pass to regain your position
  • If you drop back to a different class as you rejoin the track during the formation lap
  • If your race director tells you
You cannot pass to regain position
  • If you remain in the same class when your rejoin the track during the formation lap
Rule book is quite clear if you spin right? You can slowly regain your position no matter what class. I don’t see the problem really. If you spin you can regain your position - I don’t think it or I ever mentioned you should be at the back of your class. It does state your position. Obviously a spin during formation lap is poor (yes really poor) driving and awareness.
So why not clarify this? People above said that this is not a new issue. I am new here, only 2 race experience and wanted some clarification. I got it, I will take the penalty, move on. But please update the rules accordingly in the near future, so confusions like this won't happen. On top of that make them consistent, thanks.
what exactly do you want to clarify??
I think the rule book covers this.
If you are spun you are allowed to retake your position. If not stay on the limiter unless told otherwise by race stewards.
 

Yoeri Gijsen

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Rule book is quite clear if you spin right? You can slowly regain your position no matter what class. I don’t see the problem really. If you spin you can regain your position - I don’t think it or I ever mentioned you should be at the back of your class. It does state your position. Obviously a spin during formation lap is poor (yes really poor) driving and awareness.
It is really poor driving, indeed, though I wouldn't put it past myself in a lapse of concentration. :p

Is it perfectly clear? Quite honestly: no. This is why:

"4.2.9 Drivers who spin, or otherwise drop out of place in line, during the formation lap must not attempt to pass other cars in order to regain their place. In this circumstance a driver should safely blend into formation lap traffic or wait for the field to go past before rejoining track, then carefully make their way through the grid to their assigned starting spot."

These two bits (bolt, italics) directly contradict each other. The first line tells you to NOT PASS and the second lines tells you to PASS. I can understand why people are confused by this.

My apologies to anyone who is annoyed by me pointing this out. I hope it helps clarifying why we are having this discussion, though.
 
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