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We are an online racing league, and has years of experience using S397´s rFactor 2. We have several series - VEC which is the official rFactor 2 endurance championship. 6-24 hour races - its all about endurance.
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Race 2 - 6 hours of NOLA

Dennis Lind

VEC Division 1
VLMS
SRC Season pass
Messages
146
Statement from #10, #20 and #60 HYDR Racing cars:

Coming away from a round in NOLA which sparked obvious discomfort and confusion between many teams, us at HYDR are equally puzzled, leaving this event.
By the looks of it, there has been an exploit (It was today Confirmed in the Testing team), that made the tires delete any heat and flatspots and/or general degradation.

Looking at the race in retrospect seeing how people are being penalized from this, It's very hard for me to understand exactly what the grounds are for this penalty system. Whilst I agree that you should definitely be penalized if you take advantage of this exploit, I'm a bit confused to of which degree you have to do it to actually be penalized.
Teams have been mentioned by the organization, so I don't need to do it, but it's quite obvious to see who the offenders are, and who did it once, we will not be affiliated with cheaters, this is what's being said right now by the organization, to some degree to my understanding is, that the organization actually asked one team to try to use this exploit during the race, said team used the exploit till the end of the race(1 time before the announcement and 3 times after just like everyone else), and was not penalized equally as other teams, even though they offended this, instead of waiting till after the race, which also is a grave disappointment to me and weights heavy into favoring select team and or teams.

We HYDR esports, and Racing division as an organization, we do not condone or tolerate cheating of any degree.
So therefore we take great distance from being accused of using this exploit, if it's the organizations understanding that we intended to exploit/cheat in this way, then we have to also take great distance from ourselves, and this would mean an indefinite end to HYDR esports and Racing as a division in SRC.

The level of inconsistency between these penalties are simply not sufficient for us to be taken seriously, if one time offenders, who might not even be deliberate, gets penalized as harshly as those who obviously used this as an exploit, we can not see the esporting rules of cheating and exploitation being taken seriously.

The teams in question, who have offended this over a longer period of time, past champions, race winners, highly respected and fellow racers, should be penalized for their actions, harshly penalized. We are here to have fun, but this fun is stripped from us when you can simply cheat without any consequences, you loose some laps, too bad, you can come back next race and everyone forgets, Unacceptable.

To end we would like to say sorry to S397, SRC and Jimmi Allison, having cheaters in your league/game/community is never nice, and we hope and we know that you have the common sense to figure out the best solution for this.

HYDR esports, COO Racing Divison
Dennis Lind.
 
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Messages
17,015
common sense to figure out the best solution for this.
The common sense has been posted just a few pages back. If this was not clear then we certainly failed.

We penalized everyone, not because they took advantage of a exploit but simply because they gained an unfair advantage. We have done that on several teams, which i believe was not doing this to gain an unfair advantage - however when it is used you will get just that - an unfair advantage.
If we did nothing it would be a mistake, if we do this its a mistake, if we do something else someone else would have thought it was wrong. What i did was not taking any teams into consideration and simply apply a "bulk" penalty on those who used it until lap 135 - wether they wanted to be unfair or not. Again i still would consider people stop using the term cheating, as there is many aspects that would all of a sudden turn into a matter of "you are cheating none-sense".

To be honest - at the end of the day we had to make the best possible out of a bad situation, no one has won on this expense. Obviously you will have drivers who think one thing, some other drivers think another solution is better. At the end of the day i took this step to avoid anymore of this cr*p from some teams - if you do not agree, then feel free not too - but it is my decision to make!
 

Theo Badry

VEC Division 4
VEC Season Pass
Messages
8
If you received only two warnings, you don't have any penalty to serve. And warnings are reset with the driver swap.
Ok, Thanks Martin.

I had badly interpreted the sentence of Shawn.

Sorry, I'm just a french... And not a young one, so English lessons are a little bite far from now. :)
 
Messages
17,015
Again there are 400 different opinions on what we could and should have done. It does not matter if it is a warning or not, the teams gained an advantage, but i´ll remind you that "not knowing" is just part of the story. Line has to be drawn somewhere and you have now seen it. Now again one can only decide on things and that leaves 399 opinions.
 

Andrew Stokoe

VEC Division 4
VLMS
SRC Season pass
Messages
7
Can this just end now?

We all know what is going on. Jimmi has made a decision, and we know if it happens again it's a one lap penalty. Fair for all.

Now, to Brazil.

(RSR Blue had such a shocker at Nola (all me) I don't want to talk about it )
 

Mitchell Smith

VEC Division 1
VEC Season Pass
Messages
197
I think Jimmi did fine. I would have preferred a disqualification for the people who were obviously doing it to cheat, but in the end he had to account for accidental use as well and the consequences he implemented make sense.

Were I in your position, Dennis, I would probably be annoyed as well. But, even if it meant my team taking a minor penalty to equalise the results in order to see cheaters firmly punished I would accept that in a heartbeat. There is a clear and obvious distinction between Vires (the names have been released, so no reason not to name them) who obviously had the intent and did go out of their way to cheat, and HYDR who did not. And you did gain an advantage, albeit accidentally, and that's where I understand Jimmi's rational. As long as he allows even these accidental gains in time to go unchecked, then the results will remain compromised regardless of the consequences our cheaters received. VELES were asked to do it and still received a 1 minute penalty in order to equalise the results. Again, it's rational.

if one time offenders, who might not even be deliberate, gets penalized as harshly as those who obviously used this as an exploit, we can not see the esporting rules of cheating and exploitation being taken seriously.
This is not true, by the way. Jimmi implemented a penalty system that scaled based on severity. Those who used this intentionally to cheat suffered significantly harsher consequences (receiving 0 points is essentially the equivalent to being disqualified, anyway).

I think it's a strong statement, thankfully, that cheating and the actions of these cheaters will not be tolerated in any form here. For HYDR and others, I would view these penalties as 'corrections' to the standing. They are not indicating you intentionally cheated. Still, they're there and they need to be for the results to be viable.

One final note from me regarding the new 'clarification' surrounding cheating: if anybody thinks that they can abuse a bug and get away with it in a competitive esport environment with thousands of eyes on your every move complete with recorded data, then you're quite simply a moron and deserve to get disqualified.

Time for Brazil.
 
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Adrian Subiela

VEC Division 2
VEC Season Pass
Messages
37
The thing here is, some loopholes/glitches can be used, and some others NO.
With ALL the glitches you/your team uses make you/your team win X time.

For me de decisions made by the staff are not the correct. There is two only options in my opinion, DQ for teams that did the loophole/glitch, or nothing. I asume and understand if you think teams take an unfair advantage with this knowledge and you think they must comunicate to the staff, but you can not penalize teams for that in retrospective.
And now, the endurance races are over, cause we have to change tires if we want to change drivers, so, there is a new loophole there in my opinion, because cars with less drivers now have beneficts.

PD: 1 lap every time a team make a driver change with no tire change has no sense, and the time you add is not proportional to the time gained on track.
We now made some tests with the GTE and asume the loophole exists, but it gave us around 15 secs, no more.
I think save tires is more important than the loophole, but some people think teams made a super-handicap with the glitch.

Now we are with 0 points, and I realy think we are going to fight for the race in Brasil, with or without the loophole. Lets see what happens then.
We made the 2 poles, we take advantage in the first stint of every tire, with no loophole, we can won both races without using it, but you said we did, and is correct because it exists, like other loopholes all teams are using during this seasson.

And dont say to me my opinion matters or not, cause the staff changes his decision every time some teams said something...like this time, you change the decision, a decision you said cant be cahnged in any terms.
 
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Daniele Vidimari

VEC Division 4
VLMS
SRC Season pass
Messages
51
I think is quite easy to understand. In a situation where you have proof you'd use a DQ penalty, but this is not the case, so, the only thing to do is to assign a penalty which is on the middle between a punishment for glitch abusing/cheating whatever and an advantage obtained unintentionally. Correct me if i'm wrong. @Adrian Subiela
 

Stephen Bailey

VEC Division 1
SRC Season pass
Social Media
Messages
485
And now, the endurance races are over, cause we have to change tires if we want to change drivers, so, there is a new loophole there in my opinion, because cars with less drivers now have beneficts..
Endurance races are far from over. This doesn't stop a single driver double or triple stinting tyres, if they have the ability to make them last. At the end of the day, it is up to the team to find the fastest way within the boundaries they are given. Teams with many drivers per car...well, it was your choice to sign up so many drivers to the car, therefore It is up to you to make that work, without exploiting the single most controversial topic we've ever come across in 11 years of doing this.

Just a note on the future penalty, it is not 1 lap per use, it is disqualification. From Jimmi's post - "For anyone left in any doubt, you will be disqualified from round 3 onwards if you are caught exploiting this bug. Maybe more if it's proven to be a systematic flouting of the rules that now exist."

In further news, Marcel posted this on Discord this evening.
MarcelConfirms.png
 
Messages
17,015
The thing here is, some loopholes/glitches can be used, and some others NO.
With ALL the glitches you/your team uses make you/your team win X time.

For me de decisions made by the staff are not the correct. There is two only options in my opinion, DQ for teams that did the loophole/glitch, or nothing. I asume and understand if you think teams take an unfair advantage with this knowledge and you think they must comunicate to the staff, but you can not penalize teams for that in retrospective.
And now, the endurance races are over, cause we have to change tires if we want to change drivers, so, there is a new loophole there in my opinion, because cars with less drivers now have beneficts.

PD: 1 lap every time a team make a driver change with no tire change has no sense, and the time you add is not proportional to the time gained on track.
We now made some tests with the GTE and asume the loophole exists, but it gave us around 15 secs, no more.
I think save tires is more important than the loophole, but some people think teams made a super-handicap with the glitch.

Now we are with 0 points, and I realy think we are going to fight for the race in Brasil, with or without the loophole. Lets see what happens then.
We made the 2 poles, we take advantage in the first stint of every tire, with no loophole, we can won both races without using it, but you said we did, and is correct because it exists, like other loopholes all teams are using during this seasson.

And dont say to me my opinion matters or not, cause the staff changes his decision every time some teams said something...like this time, you change the decision, a decision you said cant be cahnged in any terms.
Clearly you have not read through the forum, because not once have i said i would do nothing. True in managers forum i stated something else, but if you look through all my posts here i dont believe i said nothing else than i need to review and i need to talk with the admin team. In case i did, it was my frustration talking. Which it was in managers forum where i also said that i trust managers would calm their drivers down.

Now as i have said previous i take decisions and i will do that in the future, just like i have been from day 1 when i started running VEC. It might not be popular decisions, but as i pointed out so many times now - it is my decision to make. I run the place, i use hours a day - i think i am entitled to do so right...

You are wrong with the 15 seconds.
A driverswap is not concurent with tyre change and 4 tyres takes exactly 37 seconds to change, add the time gained on track as well.

I understand that teams got a penalty without taking full advantage of the exploit, however the penalty just adds up if you used it twice or even 3 times.

You can do better than 4 dislikes (its the same 4 that dislikes every post of mine now - come on World of SimRacing, at least do it full throttle).

Now i think we can put this to an end and move along, i for one have used enough time arguing about this - even with people that i actually agree with. You might not agree with the decision, but then you have an option not to race here anymore. I am not forcing anyone. If it is that terrible that i make decisions then i think another series might be out there for you.

Just the other day we talked about how old days here were vs how it is now - people simply start to take things for granted - i´ve even heard people complaining about us taking too long in sorting out the outcome. Remind you we are taking about 8 (EIGHT) races, pitstops, driver swaps and then the all important decision on what we should do.

I´d suggest for future reference that your approach towards racing and behaving on our forum change slightly. Again i understand frustration, but a little understanding that sometimes we need a little time working on things, I even have to sleep after sitting infront of the pc all day preparing a race and then hosting it. Nothing is going to happen immediately.

As explained before we do not condone the use of exploits - which is shown in the way we handle this. but when calling it retroactive, that would mean we would impose a rule and then use it. We did not do that, we found teams were taking advantage of a exploit and decided to reveal it and then penalize because of the time gained.

Now this is the final post in this thread, move along now. Most of the time we are simply repeating the same posts over and over again.
 

Jos Araneda

VEC Division 1
SRC Season pass
Messages
42
The NOLA track is very good. It has been a great decision to incorporate it into the calendar of this Championship. Congratulations!
On the other hand, this race has helped me to understand and know better my track mates, whom I consider the best Endurance drivers of our great world of rFactor2.
I take this opportunity to publicly apologize to @Dennis Lind for having publicly addressed him in the Discord, for the last of the two incidents we had on this track. I'm sorry for that.
Finally, now I have a good understanding of the deadlines for claiming incidents in races of less than 12 hours :)))
So, now comes Brazil ... someone dances Samba?
 
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Alessandro Puoti

VEC Division 1
VEC Season Pass
Messages
107
8366 - F Fortin dives up the inside of S Sardina in a very aggressive move
Warning - F Fortin - Aggressive driving

8396 - F Fortin overtakes S Sardina after Sardina decides to go to the right side of the track
Racing incident
Can we ask why the incident with Fortin has been classified as "Racing incident" as if he was racing for the position? He was a lapped car at that moment and caused some damage to our car
 

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